Gmail and spam, a request

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Gmail and spam, a request

Jaroslaw Rafa
Hello all members of this list,

I have a kind request to all of you related to deliverability of my
messages. Please help.

Currently I have an issue (again; the previous one from a few months ago was
resolved) with my messages sent to Gmail users - they are put into
recipients' Spam folders. I managed to actually reach someone at Google,
who told me that this is due to huge increase of number of messages sent
from my domain in the last days.

I checked DMARC reports I get from Google and found out that there are
several hundreds of messages coming to Google from the IP address of this
list's server :). So it looks like many recipients of this list use Gmail
addresses and my few recent posts to this list (eg. in the thread about
plaintext) made me look as a spammer to Google :(

It looks like the only way to get me out of this condition is that all of
you who have a Gmail address look in their Spam folder for my messages, and
click "This is not spam" if you find any, to train the Google's AI that my
messages are not spam. That's what I'm asking you.

However, the problem is, you probably get this message in your Spam folder
too, and won't see it :(. So I would like to ask someone who is active on
this list and definitely isn't "spammified" ;) by Google to resend this
message to the list, so you can actually see it.

Thank you in advance!
--
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   [hidden email]
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

Benny Pedersen-2
On 2020-03-20 14:34, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:

> Thank you in advance!

X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on
localhost.junc.eu
X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.1, required=5.0, Autolearn=no
autolearn_force=no,
        LastExt=2604:8d00:0:1::4
X-Spam-Rules_score: DCC_CHECK=1.9,DKIM_INVALID=0.1,DKIM_SIGNED=-0.1,
        HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25,MAILING_LIST_MULTI=-3.1,
        RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-0.1,SPF_HELO_NONE=2.2,SPF_NONE=3.1,TXREP=-0.001,
        URIBL_AMI_WHITE=-0.1
X-Spam-Rules_token:
X-Spam-Flag: No
X-Spam-dcc_result: mx 1290; Body=many Fuz1=many Fuz2=many
X-Spam-Uri-Domains-Ham: rafa.eu.org
X-Spam-ASN: AS3700 2604:8d00::/32

using fuglu 0.10.6 here properly breaks dkim, but i have not found how
to fix this localy problem, more coffee to me to i find why

listadmins here could i ask atleas for spf helo pass ?
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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

Wietse Venema
Benny Pedersen:

> On 2020-03-20 14:34, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
>
> > Thank you in advance!
>
> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on
> localhost.junc.eu
> X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.1, required=5.0, Autolearn=no
> autolearn_force=no,
> LastExt=2604:8d00:0:1::4
> X-Spam-Rules_score: DCC_CHECK=1.9,DKIM_INVALID=0.1,DKIM_SIGNED=-0.1,
> HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25,MAILING_LIST_MULTI=-3.1,
> RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-0.1,SPF_HELO_NONE=2.2,SPF_NONE=3.1,TXREP=-0.001,
> URIBL_AMI_WHITE=-0.1
> X-Spam-Rules_token:
> X-Spam-Flag: No
> X-Spam-dcc_result: mx 1290; Body=many Fuz1=many Fuz2=many
> X-Spam-Uri-Domains-Ham: rafa.eu.org
> X-Spam-ASN: AS3700 2604:8d00::/32

This is added after email leaves the list serverl, because I am
getting it from the same list server, and see none of that.

        Wietse
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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

@lbutlr
In reply to this post by Jaroslaw Rafa
On 20 Mar 2020, at 07:34, Jaroslaw Rafa <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Currently I have an issue (again; the previous one from a few months ago was
> resolved) with my messages sent to Gmail users - they are put into
> recipients' Spam folders. I managed to actually reach someone at Google,
> who told me that this is due to huge increase of number of messages sent
> from my domain in the last days.
>
> I checked DMARC reports I get from Google and found out that there are
> several hundreds of messages coming to Google from the IP address of this
> list's server :). So it looks like many recipients of this list use Gmail
> addresses and my few recent posts to this list (eg. in the thread about
> plaintext) made me look as a spammer to Google :(

Message you sent to the list are sent only to the list address. The list software then sends the individual users. The messages to the list recipients do not come from your IP (unless you are the person hosting the list).



--
I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as a
        career. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed, or buy
        anything sold or processed, or process anything sold, bought, or
        processed, or repair anything sold, bought, or processed. You
        know, as a career, I don't want to do that.


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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

Wietse Venema
In reply to this post by Jaroslaw Rafa
Jaroslaw Rafa:

> Hello all members of this list,
>
> I have a kind request to all of you related to deliverability of my
> messages. Please help.
>
> Currently I have an issue (again; the previous one from a few months ago was
> resolved) with my messages sent to Gmail users - they are put into
> recipients' Spam folders. I managed to actually reach someone at Google,
> who told me that this is due to huge increase of number of messages sent
> from my domain in the last days.
>
> I checked DMARC reports I get from Google and found out that there are
> several hundreds of messages coming to Google from the IP address of this
> list's server :). So it looks like many recipients of this list use Gmail
> addresses and my few recent posts to this list (eg. in the thread about
> plaintext) made me look as a spammer to Google :(
>
> It looks like the only way to get me out of this condition is that all of
> you who have a Gmail address look in their Spam folder for my messages, and
> click "This is not spam" if you find any, to train the Google's AI that my
> messages are not spam. That's what I'm asking you.
>
> However, the problem is, you probably get this message in your Spam folder
> too, and won't see it :(. So I would like to ask someone who is active on
> this list and definitely isn't "spammified" ;) by Google to resend this
> message to the list, so you can actually see it.

Would it help if the postfix list used "dmarc mitigation" so that
the From header does not contain your email address:

From: Jaroslaw Rafa via Postfix-Users <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: Jaroslaw Rafa <[hidden email]>

"dmarc mitigation" is implemented in mailman(*) and some other list servers.

This may well be the end of the line for the majordomo-based list server.

        Wietse

(*) https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/docs/dmarc-mitigations.html
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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

Wietse Venema
In reply to this post by Jaroslaw Rafa
Jaroslaw Rafa:
> It looks like the only way to get me out of this condition is that all of
> you who have a Gmail address look in their Spam folder for my messages, and
> click "This is not spam" if you find any, to train the Google's AI that my
> messages are not spam. That's what I'm asking you.

You could send me direct email and I can forward it to gmail and
flag it as non-spam.

        Wietse
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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

Jaroslaw Rafa
In reply to this post by @lbutlr
Dnia 20.03.2020 o godz. 08:12:10 @lbutlr pisze:

> On 20 Mar 2020, at 07:34, Jaroslaw Rafa <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Currently I have an issue (again; the previous one from a few months ago was
> > resolved) with my messages sent to Gmail users - they are put into
> > recipients' Spam folders. I managed to actually reach someone at Google,
> > who told me that this is due to huge increase of number of messages sent
> > from my domain in the last days.
> >
> > I checked DMARC reports I get from Google and found out that there are
> > several hundreds of messages coming to Google from the IP address of this
> > list's server :). So it looks like many recipients of this list use Gmail
> > addresses and my few recent posts to this list (eg. in the thread about
> > plaintext) made me look as a spammer to Google :(
>
> Message you sent to the list are sent only to the list address. The list
> software then sends the individual users. The messages to the list
> recipients do not come from your IP (unless you are the person hosting the
> list).

I never said they come from my IP address, on the contrary, I said that they
come from this list server's IP address. However, they come with my address
in the "From:" header, and that's enough for Google to mark them as spam. I
confirmed in my tests that the mere presence of my email address *anywhere*
in the headers is often enough for Google to mark it as spam. Which
frustrates me because I never sent any spam message throughout the existence
of this e-mail address.
--
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   [hidden email]
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

Jaroslaw Rafa
In reply to this post by Wietse Venema
Dnia 20.03.2020 o godz. 11:06:20 Wietse Venema pisze:
> Would it help if the postfix list used "dmarc mitigation" so that
> the From header does not contain your email address:
>
> From: Jaroslaw Rafa via Postfix-Users <[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: Jaroslaw Rafa <[hidden email]>

That probably could help, because Google won't see my email address in the
"From:" field. I'm not sure if it's spam filter wouldn't trigger on
"Reply-To:" though.
--
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   [hidden email]
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

Benny Pedersen-2
On 2020-03-20 16:52, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:

> Dnia 20.03.2020 o godz. 11:06:20 Wietse Venema pisze:
>> Would it help if the postfix list used "dmarc mitigation" so that
>> the From header does not contain your email address:
>>
>> From: Jaroslaw Rafa via Postfix-Users <[hidden email]>
>> Reply-To: Jaroslaw Rafa <[hidden email]>
>
> That probably could help, because Google won't see my email address in
> the
> "From:" field. I'm not sure if it's spam filter wouldn't trigger on
> "Reply-To:" though.

there is 10 types of people that knows dkim and who dont

if you belive dkim is the problem at google one can disable dkim signer
and restest that mails is not going to spam folder at google

ironical postfix.org will just disable dkim,spf,dmarc,arc :=)

and google does not yet support dnssec, dont know if dkim at google uses
dnssec

https://dmarcian.com/spf-survey/?domain=rafa.eu.org
https://dmarcian.com/dmarc-inspector/?domain=rafa.eu.org
https://dmarcian.com/dkim-inspector/?domain=rafa.eu.org&selector=mail

mailman vill not solve anything without conseqences, all maillist could
to to help is begin arc sealing, just like dovecot maillist did recently
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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

Jaroslaw Rafa
Dnia 20.03.2020 o godz. 17:25:35 Benny Pedersen pisze:
>
> if you belive dkim is the problem at google one can disable dkim
> signer and restest that mails is not going to spam folder at google

In my case, DKIM is not the problem.
The problem - for Google - is that the message is from me as the sender.
Confirmed. Period.
--
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   [hidden email]
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

Dominic Raferd
On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 at 16:29, Jaroslaw Rafa <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dnia 20.03.2020 o godz. 17:25:35 Benny Pedersen pisze:
>
> if you belive dkim is the problem at google one can disable dkim
> signer and restest that mails is not going to spam folder at google

In my case, DKIM is not the problem.
The problem - for Google - is that the message is from me as the sender.
Confirmed. Period.

I receive your emails into Gmail albeit relayed via our own server, and they are never (yet) classed as spam. They pass DKIM and DMARC. So I wonder if the problem is as big as you think.
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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

Wietse Venema
In reply to this post by Jaroslaw Rafa
Resending Jaroslaw Rafa's message, so that people who don't see his
email can see it here.

Apparently, Gmail considers Jaroslaw;s email address as a source
of spam, because his postfix-users messages are sent to many people
in a relatively short time.

So if you could look in your spam folder and flag some of his
messages as 'not spam' then that might help.

        Wietse

Hello all members of this list,

I have a kind request to all of you related to deliverability of my
messages. Please help.

Currently I have an issue (again; the previous one from a few months ago was
resolved) with my messages sent to Gmail users - they are put into
recipients' Spam folders. I managed to actually reach someone at Google,
who told me that this is due to huge increase of number of messages sent
from my domain in the last days.

I checked DMARC reports I get from Google and found out that there are
several hundreds of messages coming to Google from the IP address of this
list's server :). So it looks like many recipients of this list use Gmail
addresses and my few recent posts to this list (eg. in the thread about
plaintext) made me look as a spammer to Google :(

It looks like the only way to get me out of this condition is that all of
you who have a Gmail address look in their Spam folder for my messages, and
click "This is not spam" if you find any, to train the Google's AI that my
messages are not spam. That's what I'm asking you.

However, the problem is, you probably get this message in your Spam folder
too, and won't see it :(. So I would like to ask someone who is active on
this list and definitely isn't "spammified" ;) by Google to resend this
message to the list, so you can actually see it.

Thank you in advance!
--
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   [hidden email]
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."

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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

Damian Lukowski
Oh Lord.

> Resending Jaroslaw Rafa's message, so that people who don't see his
> email can see it here.
>
> Apparently, Gmail considers Jaroslaw;s email address as a source
> of spam, because his postfix-users messages are sent to many people
> in a relatively short time.
>
> So if you could look in your spam folder and flag some of his
> messages as 'not spam' then that might help.
>
> Wietse
>
> Hello all members of this list,
>
> I have a kind request to all of you related to deliverability of my
> messages. Please help.
>
> Currently I have an issue (again; the previous one from a few months ago was
> resolved) with my messages sent to Gmail users - they are put into
> recipients' Spam folders. I managed to actually reach someone at Google,
> who told me that this is due to huge increase of number of messages sent
> from my domain in the last days.
>
> I checked DMARC reports I get from Google and found out that there are
> several hundreds of messages coming to Google from the IP address of this
> list's server :). So it looks like many recipients of this list use Gmail
> addresses and my few recent posts to this list (eg. in the thread about
> plaintext) made me look as a spammer to Google :(
>
> It looks like the only way to get me out of this condition is that all of
> you who have a Gmail address look in their Spam folder for my messages, and
> click "This is not spam" if you find any, to train the Google's AI that my
> messages are not spam. That's what I'm asking you.
>
> However, the problem is, you probably get this message in your Spam folder
> too, and won't see it :(. So I would like to ask someone who is active on
> this list and definitely isn't "spammified" ;) by Google to resend this
> message to the list, so you can actually see it.
>
> Thank you in advance!
>
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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

Peter Ajamian
In reply to this post by Wietse Venema
On 21/03/20 4:06 am, Wietse Venema wrote:
> Would it help if the postfix list used "dmarc mitigation" so that
> the From header does not contain your email address:

Well, in this particular case I'm seeing three messages from Jaroslaw
end up in spam.  Google says that all three pass DMARC and DKIM and SPF
is neutral.  Also in this particular case the DKIM signature includes
the From: header, so DMARC mitigation would actually have invalidated DKIM.

While I think that DMARC mitigation will help I don't think it would
have in this particular case.  At a best guess a proper SPF record
likely would have helped.

At the end of the day, I think both DMARC and SPF mitigation along with
adding your own DKIM signature will help.  In the case that DMARC
mitigation is needed and there is an existing DKIM signature that will
be invalidated by it then the existing sig would need to be removed as well.

I think the days of just forwarding messages through are over and we're
in an era where mailing lists basically have to take full ownership of
any messages they forward, so SPF, DKIM and DMARC policies that come
from the list server and not from the original poster unless they can
still pass.

> This may well be the end of the line for the majordomo-based list server.

I do believe that there are ways of doing the mitigations from postfix
and still retain mailman, but it may be a lot easier to simply switch to
mailman.


Peter
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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

Wietse Venema
Peter:
> On 21/03/20 4:06 am, Wietse Venema wrote:
> > Would it help if the postfix list used "dmarc mitigation" so that
> > the From header does not contain your email address:
>
> Well, in this particular case I'm seeing three messages from Jaroslaw
> end up in spam.  Google says that all three pass DMARC and DKIM and SPF
> is neutral.  Also in this particular case the DKIM signature includes
> the From: header, so DMARC mitigation would actually have invalidated DKIM.

Would removing Jaroslaw's email address would have changed the
'spam' ruling? We don't know that without further measurements.

> While I think that DMARC mitigation will help I don't think it would
> have in this particular case.  At a best guess a proper SPF record
> likely would have helped.
>
> At the end of the day, I think both DMARC and SPF mitigation along with
> adding your own DKIM signature will help.  In the case that DMARC
> mitigation is needed and there is an existing DKIM signature that will
> be invalidated by it then the existing sig would need to be removed as well.
>
> I think the days of just forwarding messages through are over and we're
> in an era where mailing lists basically have to take full ownership of
> any messages they forward, so SPF, DKIM and DMARC policies that come
> from the list server and not from the original poster unless they can
> still pass.
>
> > This may well be the end of the line for the majordomo-based list server.
>
> I do believe that there are ways of doing the mitigations from postfix
> and still retain mailman, but it may be a lot easier to simply switch to
> mailman.

That could be a hack like this (in Postfix or Majordomo):
- In Postfix, trigger on listmanager envelope address info
- Munge From: (combining original From: and listmanager envelope address info).
- Munge Reply-To: (using info from original From:).
- Strip DKIM, as the info would be invalid anyway.

Switching list manager would be the better long-term option, but a
hack could be useful to address some individual cases in the short
term.

        Wietse
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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

mahe-2
Hi Wietse,

>> > Would it help if the postfix list used "dmarc mitigation" so that
>> > the From header does not contain your email address:
>>
>> Well, in this particular case I'm seeing three messages from Jaroslaw
>> end up in spam.  Google says that all three pass DMARC and DKIM and
>> SPF
>> is neutral.  Also in this particular case the DKIM signature includes
>> the From: header, so DMARC mitigation would actually have invalidated
>> DKIM.
>
> Would removing Jaroslaw's email address would have changed the
> 'spam' ruling? We don't know that without further measurements.

The support of SPF/DKIM and ARC for postfix.org and all sender domain
could help, isn't it? In the meantime, mailing_list is also planned in
PolycyOverrideType for DMARC Disposition.


Franck

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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

Alex JOST-2
In reply to this post by Wietse Venema
Am 20.03.2020 um 16:06 schrieb Wietse Venema:

> Jaroslaw Rafa:
>> Hello all members of this list,
>>
>> I have a kind request to all of you related to deliverability of my
>> messages. Please help.
>>
>> Currently I have an issue (again; the previous one from a few months ago was
>> resolved) with my messages sent to Gmail users - they are put into
>> recipients' Spam folders. I managed to actually reach someone at Google,
>> who told me that this is due to huge increase of number of messages sent
>> from my domain in the last days.
>>
>> I checked DMARC reports I get from Google and found out that there are
>> several hundreds of messages coming to Google from the IP address of this
>> list's server :). So it looks like many recipients of this list use Gmail
>> addresses and my few recent posts to this list (eg. in the thread about
>> plaintext) made me look as a spammer to Google :(
>>
>> It looks like the only way to get me out of this condition is that all of
>> you who have a Gmail address look in their Spam folder for my messages, and
>> click "This is not spam" if you find any, to train the Google's AI that my
>> messages are not spam. That's what I'm asking you.
>>
>> However, the problem is, you probably get this message in your Spam folder
>> too, and won't see it :(. So I would like to ask someone who is active on
>> this list and definitely isn't "spammified" ;) by Google to resend this
>> message to the list, so you can actually see it.
>
> Would it help if the postfix list used "dmarc mitigation" so that
> the From header does not contain your email address:
>
> From: Jaroslaw Rafa via Postfix-Users <[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: Jaroslaw Rafa <[hidden email]>
>
> "dmarc mitigation" is implemented in mailman(*) and some other list servers.
>
> This may well be the end of the line for the majordomo-based list server.
>
> Wietse
>
> (*) https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/docs/dmarc-mitigations.html
>

Mailman would allow you to enable ARC signing [1], which might help aswell.

[1]:
https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/docs/arc_sign.html

--
Alex JOST
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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

Wietse Venema
In reply to this post by mahe-2
Franck MAHE:

> Hi Wietse,
>
> >> > Would it help if the postfix list used "dmarc mitigation" so that
> >> > the From header does not contain your email address:
> >>
> >> Well, in this particular case I'm seeing three messages from Jaroslaw
> >> end up in spam.  Google says that all three pass DMARC and DKIM and
> >> SPF
> >> is neutral.  Also in this particular case the DKIM signature includes
> >> the From: header, so DMARC mitigation would actually have invalidated
> >> DKIM.
> >
> > Would removing Jaroslaw's email address would have changed the
> > 'spam' ruling? We don't know that without further measurements.
>
> The support of SPF/DKIM and ARC for postfix.org and all sender domain
> could help, isn't it? In the meantime, mailing_list is also planned in
> PolycyOverrideType for DMARC Disposition.

Coming back to the original problem, that Gmail was flagging
Jaroslaw's non-list messages as spam. Would removing Jaroslaw's
email address from Postfix list mail have changed the 'spam'
disposition of his non-list messages? The response from Gmail staff
implies that his list messages were a factor in the spam ruling (as
reported by Jaroslaw).

        Wietse
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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

Peter Ajamian
In reply to this post by Wietse Venema
On 23/03/20 3:40 am, Wietse Venema wrote:
> Would removing Jaroslaw's email address would have changed the
> 'spam' ruling? We don't know that without further measurements.

Right, no real way to tell.  At the end of the day it's a matter of
jumping through as many hoops as we can and hope that it's enough.

>> I do believe that there are ways of doing the mitigations from postfix
>> and still retain mailman, but it may be a lot easier to simply switch to
>> mailman.
>
> That could be a hack like this (in Postfix or Majordomo):
> - In Postfix, trigger on listmanager envelope address info
> - Munge From: (combining original From: and listmanager envelope address info).
> - Munge Reply-To: (using info from original From:).

Isn't it better to have Reply-To: go to the list?

> - Strip DKIM, as the info would be invalid anyway.

I would add in DKIM and/or ARC signing.  I honestly don't know if we can
do both, but if so then we probably should.  There may be servers that
verify DKIM but don't know about ARC.

> Switching list manager would be the better long-term option, but a
> hack could be useful to address some individual cases in the short
> term.

Agreed.


Peter
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Re: Gmail and spam, a request

Viktor Dukhovni
On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 10:42:29AM +1300, Peter wrote:

> > That could be a hack like this (in Postfix or Majordomo):
> > - In Postfix, trigger on listmanager envelope address info
> > - Munge From: (combining original From: and listmanager envelope address info).
> > - Munge Reply-To: (using info from original From:).
>
> Isn't it better to have Reply-To: go to the list?

It is best to not modify the message headers at all, which is
effectively what the Postfix list does (it adds a Sender:
header which should not be covered by the upstream DKIM
signature).

> > - Strip DKIM, as the info would be invalid anyway.
>
> I would add in DKIM and/or ARC signing.  I honestly don't know if we can
> do both, but if so then we probably should.  There may be servers that
> verify DKIM but don't know about ARC.

ARC signing might be helpful, but I don't think we need to do anything
at all.  With just one user having issues, the problem is most likely
upstream.

To participate in this list, feel free to DKIM sign your mail, but best
to stay clear of DMARC, just case your DKIM signatures become invalid
in transit.

--
    Viktor.
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