OT: How to resolve big ISP mail drop

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OT: How to resolve big ISP mail drop

Gary Smith-20
This is somewhat off topic to the postfix list, but relevant to the community.

I have a client who sends about 600mgs/week total from their SBS server through our email relays. The relay IP has a positive reputation and isn't flagged for spam on any of the lists. Recently they had an issue in which email they sent to a set of users at ATT never made it to their inbox, but mail to yahoo users made it just fine. So, digging in the logs, we found that ATT did indeed accept the email just fine. The typical solution is to have the user check the spam/trash/search tools for the message, nada.

Feb  2 13:30:28 hsfremto01 postfix/smtp[31326]: 4F3F882393: to=<[hidden email]>, relay=scc-mailrelay.att.net[204.127.208.75]:25, delay=1.1, delays=0.01/0/0.71/0.33, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 ok ; id=20110202213026s0100mapi5e)

I did the logical thing in that I put a trouble ticket in with ATT and got the automated response "Your IP isn't blacklisted". Calling several times, I never could get to a department that managed (or closely resembled) any type of tech department.

Anyway, the question is, how does the community as a whole deal with big ISP's losing email? It seems that some companies (like ATT) seem to have less and less access to tools necessary for communicating with them on things like this. Is there any know lists of contact/support channels out there that people use for the larger ISP's?


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Re: OT: How to resolve big ISP mail drop

Robert Schetterer
Am 04.02.2011 23:54, schrieb Gary Smith:

> This is somewhat off topic to the postfix list, but relevant to the community.
>
> I have a client who sends about 600mgs/week total from their SBS server through our email relays. The relay IP has a positive reputation and isn't flagged for spam on any of the lists. Recently they had an issue in which email they sent to a set of users at ATT never made it to their inbox, but mail to yahoo users made it just fine. So, digging in the logs, we found that ATT did indeed accept the email just fine. The typical solution is to have the user check the spam/trash/search tools for the message, nada.
>
> Feb  2 13:30:28 hsfremto01 postfix/smtp[31326]: 4F3F882393: to=<[hidden email]>, relay=scc-mailrelay.att.net[204.127.208.75]:25, delay=1.1, delays=0.01/0/0.71/0.33, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 ok ; id=20110202213026s0100mapi5e)
>
> I did the logical thing in that I put a trouble ticket in with ATT and got the automated response "Your IP isn't blacklisted". Calling several times, I never could get to a department that managed (or closely resembled) any type of tech department.
>
> Anyway, the question is, how does the community as a whole deal with big ISP's losing email? It seems that some companies (like ATT) seem to have less and less access to tools necessary for communicating with them on things like this. Is there any know lists of contact/support channels out there that people use for the larger ISP's?
>
>

if all happend as you told, you did the right react, and there isnt much
more you can do, additional perhaps search advanced aggressive
users which are customers at this isp and inform about dropping mail to
them, not longer getting your newsletter etc , usally companies react
better when they get asked by people
from which they want money, in heavy cases this might be work for lawers


whatever your story isnt rare as might you think, there are some big
mail isp out there ,which postmaster support is a desaster

--
Best Regards

MfG Robert Schetterer

Germany/Munich/Bavaria
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Re: OT: How to resolve big ISP mail drop

mouss-4
In reply to this post by Gary Smith-20
Le 04/02/2011 23:54, Gary Smith a écrit :

> This is somewhat off topic to the postfix list, but relevant to the community.
>
> I have a client who sends about 600mgs/week total from their SBS server through our email relays. The relay IP has a positive reputation and isn't flagged for spam on any of the lists. Recently they had an issue in which email they sent to a set of users at ATT never made it to their inbox, but mail to yahoo users made it just fine. So, digging in the logs, we found that ATT did indeed accept the email just fine. The typical solution is to have the user check the spam/trash/search tools for the message, nada.
>
> Feb  2 13:30:28 hsfremto01 postfix/smtp[31326]: 4F3F882393: to=<[hidden email]>, relay=scc-mailrelay.att.net[204.127.208.75]:25, delay=1.1, delays=0.01/0/0.71/0.33, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 ok ; id=20110202213026s0100mapi5e)
>
> I did the logical thing in that I put a trouble ticket in with ATT and got the automated response "Your IP isn't blacklisted". Calling several times, I never could get to a department that managed (or closely resembled) any type of tech department.
>
> Anyway, the question is, how does the community as a whole deal with big ISP's losing email? It seems that some companies (like ATT) seem to have less and less access to tools necessary for communicating with them on things like this. Is there any know lists of contact/support channels out there that people use for the larger ISP's?
>
>

unfortunately, there's not much to do on your side. if you know ISP
customers, you can try to convince them to complain. and even then, only
if "many" customers complain will the ISP do anything.

my "rule" is that "network providers" are bad service providers
(priorities dictate how help desk acts) and people should get service
(email or other) elsewehere. as an example, the major isp here is
orange. some time ago, they were a large backscatter source. then they
"fixed" that by discarding mail (except if sender is at orange, but that
doesn't mean it's not backscatter!).
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Re: OT: How to resolve big ISP mail drop

Andrew Beverley
In reply to this post by Gary Smith-20
On Fri, 2011-02-04 at 14:54 -0800, Gary Smith wrote:
> I have a client who sends about 600mgs/week total from their SBS server
>  through our email relays. The relay IP has a positive reputation and
>  isn't flagged for spam on any of the lists. Recently they had an issue
>  in which email they sent to a set of users at ATT never made it to
>  their inbox, but mail to yahoo users made it just fine.
...
> Anyway, the question is, how does the community as a whole deal with
>  big ISP's losing email? It seems that some companies (like ATT) seem
>  to have less and less access to tools necessary for communicating with
>  them on things like this. Is there any know lists of contact/support
>  channels out there that people use for the larger ISP's?

As already stated, there's not a huge amount that you can do on your
own. However, if you're prepared to part with a bit of cash, then you
could look into using a whitelisting agent such as SuretyMail or
ReturnPath.

Andy


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RE: OT: How to resolve big ISP mail drop

Gary Smith-20
> > Anyway, the question is, how does the community as a whole deal with
> >  big ISP's losing email? It seems that some companies (like ATT) seem
> >  to have less and less access to tools necessary for communicating with
> >  them on things like this. Is there any know lists of contact/support
> >  channels out there that people use for the larger ISP's?
>
> As already stated, there's not a huge amount that you can do on your
> own. However, if you're prepared to part with a bit of cash, then you
> could look into using a whitelisting agent such as SuretyMail or
> ReturnPath.

Andy,

Problem isn't white/grey/black listings, its that they accepted the email with a valid return code but it never made it to the destination box. It only seems to be happened on a few recipients. Basically, in short, the destination ISP (in this case ATT) is making some type of decision as to what email you are receiving. Buying additional technology won't exactly solve this problem.

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Re: OT: How to resolve big ISP mail drop

Kris Deugau
Gary Smith wrote:

>>> Anyway, the question is, how does the community as a whole deal with
>>>   big ISP's losing email? It seems that some companies (like ATT) seem
>>>   to have less and less access to tools necessary for communicating with
>>>   them on things like this. Is there any know lists of contact/support
>>>   channels out there that people use for the larger ISP's?
>>
>> As already stated, there's not a huge amount that you can do on your
>> own. However, if you're prepared to part with a bit of cash, then you
>> could look into using a whitelisting agent such as SuretyMail or
>> ReturnPath.
>
> Andy,
>
> Problem isn't white/grey/black listings, its that they accepted the email with a valid return code but it never made it to the destination box. It only seems to be happened on a few recipients. Basically, in short, the destination ISP (in this case ATT) is making some type of decision as to what email you are receiving. Buying additional technology won't exactly solve this problem.

Actually it might work;  chances are there's a spam filter on the
recipient side eating the message without telling anyone, and shelling
out for a whitelist "certification" may help get through that filter.

It's by no means *guaranteed*, though.

-kgd
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Re: OT: How to resolve big ISP mail drop

Andrew Beverley
On Fri, 2011-02-11 at 13:25 -0500, Kris Deugau wrote:

> Gary Smith wrote:
> >>> Anyway, the question is, how does the community as a whole deal with
> >>>   big ISP's losing email? It seems that some companies (like ATT) seem
> >>>   to have less and less access to tools necessary for communicating with
> >>>   them on things like this. Is there any know lists of contact/support
> >>>   channels out there that people use for the larger ISP's?
> >>
> >> As already stated, there's not a huge amount that you can do on your
> >> own. However, if you're prepared to part with a bit of cash, then you
> >> could look into using a whitelisting agent such as SuretyMail or
> >> ReturnPath.
> >
> > Andy,
> >
> > Problem isn't white/grey/black listings, its that they accepted the email with a valid return code but it never made it to the destination box. It only seems to be happened on a few recipients. Basically, in short, the destination ISP (in this case ATT) is making some type of decision as to what email you are receiving. Buying additional technology won't exactly solve this problem.
>
> Actually it might work;  chances are there's a spam filter on the
> recipient side eating the message without telling anyone, and shelling
> out for a whitelist "certification" may help get through that filter.
>

Yes, exactly. If mail comes from an IP address that has been certified
by one of the white-listing agents, then generally there is a lot less
chance of it "disappearing".

Look at it from the ISP's point of view: If there is a list of IP
addresses that are almost guaranteed to be spam free, then why use CPU
power to process those emails through your spam filters? It also keeps
an ISP's customers happier, because their customers don't like emails
sent to them disappearing, as much as you don't.

I started using SuretyMail a couple of years ago and I've had a lot less
complaints from users that their mail didn't make it to a recipient. I
found that using the line "well it was delivered to the remote mail
server" didn't necessarily help :-)

ReturnPath are the other company that I'm aware of, and I think they
have a pretty close relationship with Hotmail, but IIRC they are a lot
more expensive, and their sales department weren't particularly helpful
at the time.

> It's by no means *guaranteed*, though.
>

Correct. I still have a few emails go "missing", and of course an agent
comes at a cost.

Andy


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Re: OT: How to resolve big ISP mail drop

John Allen
In reply to this post by Gary Smith-20
If, and its a big if, they are respecting the various RFCs that cover
email then email to postmaster or abuse should get through. But as it is
a big IF>

On 11/02/2011 12:15 PM, Gary Smith wrote:

>>> Anyway, the question is, how does the community as a whole deal with
>>>   big ISP's losing email? It seems that some companies (like ATT) seem
>>>   to have less and less access to tools necessary for communicating with
>>>   them on things like this. Is there any know lists of contact/support
>>>   channels out there that people use for the larger ISP's?
>> As already stated, there's not a huge amount that you can do on your
>> own. However, if you're prepared to part with a bit of cash, then you
>> could look into using a whitelisting agent such as SuretyMail or
>> ReturnPath.
> Andy,
>
> Problem isn't white/grey/black listings, its that they accepted the email with a valid return code but it never made it to the destination box. It only seems to be happened on a few recipients. Basically, in short, the destination ISP (in this case ATT) is making some type of decision as to what email you are receiving. Buying additional technology won't exactly solve this problem.
>

--
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

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Re: OT: How to resolve big ISP mail drop

Stan Hoeppner
In reply to this post by Gary Smith-20
Gary Smith put forth on 2/11/2011 11:15 AM:

> Problem isn't white/grey/black listings, its that they accepted the email with a valid return code but it never made it to the destination box. It only seems to be happened on a few recipients. Basically, in short, the destination ISP (in this case ATT) is making some type of decision as to what email you are receiving. Buying additional technology won't exactly solve this problem.

Have subsequent emails from the same senders to the same ATT recipients been
successful?  Or is this an ongoing problem?

If ongoing, are these "lost" emails of a billing or invoice nature?  If so,
makes me wanna say "Hmmmm...."

--
Stan
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Re: OT: How to resolve big ISP mail drop

Nick Edwards-2
In reply to this post by Andrew Beverley
I know this is a few days old, but i've been away on holidays

On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 8:40 PM, Andrew Beverley <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, 2011-02-11 at 13:25 -0500, Kris Deugau wrote:
> Gary Smith wrote:

> >> As already stated, there's not a huge amount that you can do on your
> >> own. However, if you're prepared to part with a bit of cash, then you
> >> could look into using a whitelisting agent such as SuretyMail or
> >> ReturnPath.
> >
> > Andy,


This assumes those ISP's use a third party whitelist, not that many do, so save your money, many ISP's that use SA even zero score SA's whitelist rules, maybe its demographics, but we are the only ones to decide what should be whitelisted for our own networks, nt some get rich quick company.

 
> >
> > Problem isn't white/grey/black listings, its that they accepted the email with a valid return code but it never made it to the destination box. It only seems to be happened on a few recipients. Basically, in short,


current RFC for smtp permits silent discard of spam, even though most of us have been doing it for decades.
 
the destination ISP (in this case ATT) is making some type of decision as to what email you are receiving. Buying additional technology won't exactly solve this problem.


*nods*


Look at it from the ISP's point of view: If there is a list of IP
addresses that are almost guaranteed to be spam free, then why use CPU
power to process those emails through your spam filters? It also keeps
an ISP's customers happier, because their customers don't like emails
sent to them disappearing, as much as you don't.



because there is no guarantee of spam free mail servers, ever, and i dont care which fantasy company wants to think there is just because a few dollars change hands.

 

ReturnPath are the other company that I'm aware of, and I think they
have a pretty close relationship with Hotmail, but IIRC they are a lot
more expensive, and their sales department weren't particularly helpful
at the time.



RP, they are a marketing company, there news letters even contain info on how to get their clients spam accross to others avoiding some common block methods