OT: dnsbl.sorbs.net - help explaining to Mozilla list maintainers why outright blocking is bad

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OT: dnsbl.sorbs.net - help explaining to Mozilla list maintainers why outright blocking is bad

Tanstaafl
Hello,

I've been experiencing and on/off again problem with my shared dreamhost
account IP block getting listed by SORBS.

The only reason I know this is because apparently the Mozilla list
maintainers have configured all of the Mozilla discussion lists to
outright BLOCK based on being listed by dnsbl.sorbs.net.

After querying where/how to request this be changed through the proper
channels, I opened a bug with respect to the list infra owners, and
explained to the best of my ability why outright blocking based on SORBS
listing is bad:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1280451

It was immediately closed with this response:

"SORBS is an RBL service we use, and generally when you get listed its
actually for a reason and usually we push back and have the ISP to
request a delisting since you are placed on this list for a reason.
Looks like what you are sending is from a dreamhost IP range, are you
sending directly from a host? I would recommend using a mail relay or
you could talk to dreamhost about asking them to get delisted"

I responded requesting reconsideration, and re-opened it.

Would appreciate some help. Their lists are the only reason I ever find
out that dreamhosts IP block I'm on gets listed - none of the other 25+
lists I'm on have ever blocked because of it.
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Re: OT: dnsbl.sorbs.net - help explaining to Mozilla list maintainers why outright blocking is bad

Wietse Venema
[mozilla.org using SORBS as a veto]

Looks like they disabled SORBS.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1280451#c5

        Wietse
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Re: OT: dnsbl.sorbs.net - help explaining to Mozilla list maintainers why outright blocking is bad

lists@lazygranch.com
In reply to this post by Tanstaafl
‎Reading the bug report, I see they have temporarily dropped SORBS. When I set up my email server, SORBS turned out to be useless because of false positives. 

I see Dreamhost will give you a unique IP for $6. Kind of pricey considering a VPS from Digital Ocean and a few others can be had for $10. They come with a unique IP address.

Another alternative is to use Gmail. Either free, or you can get a paid account that allows more control, not to mention DKIM and SPF back to your domain.

I spent 15 years on a shared IP, getting blocked on and off. I believe there is no solution to being blocked as long as some spammer can use the same IP address. When VPS arrived, I got one and never looked back. ‎However you need to spend time setting it up and playing sysadmin (mostly patching) . For some people, the additional fee that Dreamhost charges for a unique IP is the best solution. 

  Original Message  
From: Tanstaafl
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2016 6:11 AM
To: postfix users
Subject: OT: dnsbl.sorbs.net - help explaining to Mozilla list maintainers why outright blocking is bad

Hello,

I've been experiencing and on/off again problem with my shared dreamhost
account IP block getting listed by SORBS.

The only reason I know this is because apparently the Mozilla list
maintainers have configured all of the Mozilla discussion lists to
outright BLOCK based on being listed by dnsbl.sorbs.net.

After querying where/how to request this be changed through the proper
channels, I opened a bug with respect to the list infra owners, and
explained to the best of my ability why outright blocking based on SORBS
listing is bad:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1280451

It was immediately closed with this response:

"SORBS is an RBL service we use, and generally when you get listed its
actually for a reason and usually we push back and have the ISP to
request a delisting since you are placed on this list for a reason.
Looks like what you are sending is from a dreamhost IP range, are you
sending directly from a host? I would recommend using a mail relay or
you could talk to dreamhost about asking them to get delisted"

I responded requesting reconsideration, and re-opened it.

Would appreciate some help. Their lists are the only reason I ever find
out that dreamhosts IP block I'm on gets listed - none of the other 25+
lists I'm on have ever blocked because of it.
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Re: OT: dnsbl.sorbs.net - help explaining to Mozilla list maintainers why outright blocking is bad

Tanstaafl
In reply to this post by Wietse Venema
On 6/17/2016 10:05 AM, [hidden email] (Wietse Venema)
<[hidden email] (Wietse Venema)> wrote:
> [mozilla.org using SORBS as a veto]
>
> Looks like they disabled SORBS.
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1280451#c5

Yes, thankfully he reconsidered after I begged...

Thanks, and sorry for the noise...
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Re: OT: dnsbl.sorbs.net - help explaining to Mozilla list maintainers why outright blocking is bad

Brett @Google
In reply to this post by Tanstaafl
sorbs is not always a consistent organization, both listing and delisting can be chaotic, i don't think they have a policy based system, it has in the past been based on reporting that is vetted only sporadically, you'd think mozilla would only use dnsbl from larger organisations with a policy

but it's a fair point to use another smtp host, if hosts in the same subnet are being abusive, if its cheap high density hosting you might literally be sharing a name based host ip with a spammer, or you are the only one NOT a spammer..  my 2c

in particular sorbs dont seem able to say why you were listed, so you can stop it happening again, more professional orgs track the cause so you can fix the problem, maybe you are coming from an ip range that has a spf record that says mail is not expected ? they should be able to tell you why, or whitelist your ip, other than a broad statement about blocking a whole subnet which as high density hosting, is of course going to be of a high spam potentiality

> On 17 Jun 2016, at 11:10 PM, Tanstaafl <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I've been experiencing and on/off again problem with my shared dreamhost
> account IP block getting listed by SORBS.
>
> The only reason I know this is because apparently the Mozilla list
> maintainers have configured all of the Mozilla discussion lists to
> outright BLOCK based on being listed by dnsbl.sorbs.net.
>
> After querying where/how to request this be changed through the proper
> channels, I opened a bug with respect to the list infra owners, and
> explained to the best of my ability why outright blocking based on SORBS
> listing is bad:
>
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1280451
>
> It was immediately closed with this response:
>
> "SORBS is an RBL service we use, and generally when you get listed its
> actually for a reason and usually we push back and have the ISP to
> request a delisting since you are placed on this list for a reason.
> Looks like what you are sending is from a dreamhost IP range, are you
> sending directly from a host? I would recommend using a mail relay or
> you could talk to dreamhost about asking them to get delisted"
>
> I responded requesting reconsideration, and re-opened it.
>
> Would appreciate some help. Their lists are the only reason I ever find
> out that dreamhosts IP block I'm on gets listed - none of the other 25+
> lists I'm on have ever blocked because of it.
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Re: OT: dnsbl.sorbs.net - help explaining to Mozilla list maintainers why outright blocking is bad

Michael J Wise

SORBS is very good at detecting stale lists, typo domains, and ... abusers
using your service. I'd prefer to not use it as a block, but certainly an
advice for filtering.

If you're the only one using an IP that got listed in SORBS, you need to
seriously rethink how often you are mailing your customers, your bounce
processing, and ... where you originally got those addresses in the first
place. And if your system can be driven to generate Backscatter, sooner or
later, a Bad Person will cause your IP(s) to be listed.

> sorbs is not always a consistent organization, both listing and delisting
> can be chaotic, i don't think they have a policy based system, it has in
> the past been based on reporting that is vetted only sporadically, you'd
> think mozilla would only use dnsbl from larger organisations with a policy
>
> but it's a fair point to use another smtp host, if hosts in the same
> subnet are being abusive, if its cheap high density hosting you might
> literally be sharing a name based host ip with a spammer, or you are the
> only one NOT a spammer..  my 2c
>
> in particular sorbs dont seem able to say why you were listed, so you can
> stop it happening again, more professional orgs track the cause so you can
> fix the problem, maybe you are coming from an ip range that has a spf
> record that says mail is not expected ? they should be able to tell you
> why, or whitelist your ip, other than a broad statement about blocking a
> whole subnet which as high density hosting, is of course going to be of a
> high spam potentiality
>
>> On 17 Jun 2016, at 11:10 PM, Tanstaafl <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I've been experiencing and on/off again problem with my shared dreamhost
>> account IP block getting listed by SORBS.
>>
>> The only reason I know this is because apparently the Mozilla list
>> maintainers have configured all of the Mozilla discussion lists to
>> outright BLOCK based on being listed by dnsbl.sorbs.net.
>>
>> After querying where/how to request this be changed through the proper
>> channels, I opened a bug with respect to the list infra owners, and
>> explained to the best of my ability why outright blocking based on SORBS
>> listing is bad:
>>
>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1280451
>>
>> It was immediately closed with this response:
>>
>> "SORBS is an RBL service we use, and generally when you get listed its
>> actually for a reason and usually we push back and have the ISP to
>> request a delisting since you are placed on this list for a reason.
>> Looks like what you are sending is from a dreamhost IP range, are you
>> sending directly from a host? I would recommend using a mail relay or
>> you could talk to dreamhost about asking them to get delisted"
>>
>> I responded requesting reconsideration, and re-opened it.
>>
>> Would appreciate some help. Their lists are the only reason I ever find
>> out that dreamhosts IP block I'm on gets listed - none of the other 25+
>> lists I'm on have ever blocked because of it.
>


Aloha mai Nai`a.
--
" So this is how Liberty dies ...          http://kapu.net/~mjwise/
" To Thunderous Applause.