Testing Postfix-3.3....0-RC1

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Testing Postfix-3.3....0-RC1

Christian Rößner
Hi,

so far, the RC1 works. There is only one thing that is bad:

Start and stop do not like directories inside /etc/postfix*

----------------------------------------------------------------
rns root@mx  ~ # postfix stop
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
postfix/postfix-script: stopping the Postfix mail system
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
postfix/postfix-script: stopping the Postfix mail system
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
postfix/postfix-script: stopping the Postfix mail system

rns root@mx  ~ # postfix start
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
postfix/postfix-script: starting the Postfix mail system
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
postfix/postfix-script: starting the Postfix mail system
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory
/usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
postfix/postfix-script: starting the Postfix mail system
----------------------------------------------------------------

How can I stop these nasty messages? I have a very clean file structure and this is totally ok, so Postfix should not show these messages.

Thanks

Christian
--
Rößner-Network-Solutions
Erlenwiese 14, 36304 Alsfeld
T: +49 6631 78823400, F: +49 6631 78823409, M: +49 171 9905345
USt-IdNr.: DE225643613, https://roessner-network-solutions.com

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Re: Testing Postfix-3.3....0-RC1

Wietse Venema
Christian Ro??ner:
> Hi,
>
> so far, the RC1 works. There is only one thing that is bad:
>
> Start and stop do not like directories inside /etc/postfix*
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> rns root@mx  ~ # postfix stop
> /usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory

What are the main.cf settings?

What is /etc/postfix-submission/ldap?

        Wietse
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Re: Testing Postfix-3.3....0-RC1

Wietse Venema
 # postfix stop
> /usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory

I'm closing this bug, so that I can unblock the Postfix 3.3 release.

The reporter has not provided configuration details for reproducing this.
Based on a reverse code analysis starting with the warning message, I
can only reproduce the warning message when main.cf or master.cf contain,
after $name expansion, a parameter value of the form:

 ... maptype:/etc/postfix/ldap ...
 ... word:{... maptype:/etc/postfix/ldap ...} ...
 ... word:{... word:{... maptype:/etc/postfix/ldap ...} ...} ...

and so on, recursively, where 'maptype' is a Postfix database type that
uses a configuration file (examples: ldap, memcache, *sql) perhaps with
a prefix of 'proxy:', and 'word' is a sequence that does not contain
comma or whitespace.

        Wietse
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Re: Testing Postfix-3.3....0-RC1

Wietse Venema
Wietse Venema:
>  # postfix stop
> > /usr/sbin/postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix-submission/ldap": Is a directory
>
> I'm closing this bug, so that I can unblock the Postfix 3.3 release.
>
> The reporter has not provided configuration details for reproducing this.
> Based on a reverse code analysis starting with the warning message, I
> can only reproduce the warning message when main.cf or master.cf contain,
> after $name expansion, a parameter value of the form:

To be precise, a parameter value with one of the following forms:

>  ... maptype:/etc/postfix/ldap ...
>  ... word:{... maptype:/etc/postfix/ldap ...} ...
>  ... word:{... word:{... maptype:/etc/postfix/ldap ...} ...} ...
>
> and so on, recursively, where 'maptype' is a Postfix database type that
> uses a configuration file (examples: ldap, memcache, *sql) perhaps with
> a prefix of 'proxy:', and 'word' is a sequence that does not contain
> comma or whitespace.

To find the culprit in main.cf:

    postconf -xn | grep /etc/postfix/ldap

Ditto for master.cf:

    postconf -xM | grep /etc/postfix/ldap

The '-x' expands any $name instances.

        Wietse
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Re: Testing Postfix-3.3....0-RC1

Christian Rößner
Hi,

sorry for the delay. I gave a party at Friday and I did not find the time to anser faster.

> Am 18.02.2018 um 00:48 schrieb Wietse Venema <[hidden email]>:
>
> postconf -xn | grep /etc/postfix/ldap

------------------------------------------------
postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory
ldap = proxy:ldap:/etc/postfix/ldap
proxy_read_maps = proxy:unix:passwd.byname, proxy:ldap:/etc/postfix/ldap/relay_recipient_maps.cf, proxy:ldap:/etc/postfix/ldap/relay_domains_and_helo_access.cf, proxy:ldap:/etc/postfix/ldap/relay_recipient_maps.cf, proxy:ldap:/etc/postfix/ldap/add_header.cf, proxy:ldap:/etc/postfix/ldap/transport.cf
relay_domains = lists.roessner-net.de, proxy:ldap:/etc/postfix/ldap/relay_domains_and_helo_access.cf
relay_recipient_maps = pcre:/etc/postfix/maps/roleaccount.pcre, proxy:ldap:/etc/postfix/ldap/relay_recipient_maps.cf
smtpd_helo_restrictions = reject_invalid_helo_hostname, reject_non_fqdn_helo_hostname, permit_mynetworks, check_helo_access pcre:/etc/postfix/maps/helo_access.pcre, check_helo_access proxy:ldap:/etc/postfix/ldap/relay_domains_and_helo_access.cf
smtpd_recipient_restrictions = reject_non_fqdn_recipient, reject_unknown_recipient_domain, reject_unlisted_recipient, check_policy_service { inet:[::1]:8888, default_action=DUNNO }, check_policy_service { inet:[::1]:12340, default_action=DUNNO }, permit_mynetworks, reject_unauth_destination, check_recipient_access pcre:/etc/postfix/maps/roleaccount_exceptions.pcre, check_recipient_access proxy:ldap:/etc/postfix/ldap/add_header.cf, reject_unverified_recipient
smtpd_sender_restrictions = reject_non_fqdn_sender, permit_mynetworks, check_policy_service { inet:[::1]:8888, default_action=DUNNO }, check_sender_access proxy:ldap:/etc/postfix/ldap/relay_domains_and_helo_access.cf
transport_maps = lmdb:/etc/postfix/maps/transport, pcre:/etc/postfix/maps/transport.pcre, proxy:ldap:/etc/postfix/ldap/transport.cf
virtual_alias_maps = proxy:ldap:/etc/postfix/ldap/relay_recipient_maps.cf

It is post-multi over three instances. Is ort LDAP config files and maps uner sub directories in /etc/postfix* to have a clear file structure and easy permissions (750, root:postfix for example)

This worked for decades.

Christian
--
Rößner-Network-Solutions
Erlenwiese 14, 36304 Alsfeld
T: +49 6631 78823400, F: +49 6631 78823409, M: +49 171 9905345
USt-IdNr.: DE225643613, https://roessner-network-solutions.com


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Re: Testing Postfix-3.3....0-RC1

Wietse Venema
Christian Ro??ner:
> Hi,
>
> sorry for the delay. I gave a party at Friday and I did not find the time to anser faster.
>
> > Am 18.02.2018 um 00:48 schrieb Wietse Venema <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > postconf -xn | grep /etc/postfix/ldap

I copied those settings to my main.cf file, and as expected, no
warning messages.

What about the other postconf command in my response?

        Wietse
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Re: Testing Postfix-3.3....0-RC1

John Fawcett
On 18/02/18 14:04, Wietse Venema wrote:
Christian Ro??ner:
Hi,

sorry for the delay. I gave a party at Friday and I did not find the time to anser faster.

Am 18.02.2018 um 00:48 schrieb Wietse Venema [hidden email]:

postconf -xn | grep /etc/postfix/ldap
I copied those settings to my main.cf file, and as expected, no
warning messages.

What about the other postconf command in my response?

	Wietse
Not sure if it helps, but with this configuration in /etc/postfix/main.cf

ldap = proxy:ldap:/etc/postfix/ldap

when I run postconf it gives me a warning that depends on whether that directory exists or not

either
postconf: warning: open "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": No such file or directory
or
postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory

that's on 3.3-20171229
John
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Re: Testing Postfix-3.3....0-RC1

John Fawcett
On 18/02/18 14:26, John Fawcett wrote:
On 18/02/18 14:04, Wietse Venema wrote:
Christian Ro??ner:
Hi,

sorry for the delay. I gave a party at Friday and I did not find the time to anser faster.

Am 18.02.2018 um 00:48 schrieb Wietse Venema [hidden email]:

postconf -xn | grep /etc/postfix/ldap
I copied those settings to my main.cf file, and as expected, no
warning messages.

What about the other postconf command in my response?

	Wietse
Not sure if it helps, but with this configuration in /etc/postfix/main.cf

ldap = proxy:ldap:/etc/postfix/ldap

when I run postconf it gives me a warning that depends on whether that directory exists or not

either
postconf: warning: open "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": No such file or directory
or
postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/etc/postfix/ldap": Is a directory

that's on 3.3-20171229
John

looks like the source code that produces the error message is in postconf/postconf_dbms.c

        dict_load_fp(dict_spec, fp);
        if (vstream_fclose(fp)) {
            msg_warn("read \"%s\" configuration \"%s\": %m",
                     dp->db_type, cf_file);
            myfree(dict_spec);
            return;
        }

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Re: Testing Postfix-3.3....0-RC1

Christian Rößner
In reply to this post by Wietse Venema


> Am 18.02.2018 um 14:04 schrieb Wietse Venema <[hidden email]>:
>
> Christian Ro??ner:
>> Hi,
>>
>> sorry for the delay. I gave a party at Friday and I did not find the time to anser faster.
>>
>>> Am 18.02.2018 um 00:48 schrieb Wietse Venema <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>> postconf -xn | grep /etc/postfix/ldap
>
> I copied those settings to my main.cf file, and as expected, no
> warning messages.
>
> What about the other postconf command in my response?
It seems the output of postconf does not reflect the real main.cf, as it normalizes things. I defined macros at the top:

# Global variables
default_database_type = lmdb
map = ${config_directory}/maps
mapidx = ${default_database_type}:${map}
ldap = proxy:ldap:${config_directory}/ldap

And I use them like:

proxy_read_maps =
    proxy:unix:passwd.byname,
    ${virtual_alias_maps},
    ${ldap}/relay_domains_and_helo_access.cf,
    ${ldap}/relay_recipient_maps.cf,
    ${ldap}/add_header.cf,
    ${ldap}/transport.cf

relay_domains =
    lists.${mydomain},
    ${ldap}/relay_domains_and_helo_access.cf

All other command syou asked me for do not print anything that has been shown with my latest reply.

If you need more details, I will send you my full config gzipped and offlist.

Christian
--
Rößner-Network-Solutions
Erlenwiese 14, 36304 Alsfeld
T: +49 6631 78823400, F: +49 6631 78823409, M: +49 171 9905345
USt-IdNr.: DE225643613, https://roessner-network-solutions.com


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Re: Testing Postfix-3.3....0-RC1

Viktor Dukhovni
In reply to this post by John Fawcett


> On Feb 18, 2018, at 8:26 AM, John Fawcett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Not sure if it helps, but with this configuration in /etc/postfix/main.cf
>
> ldap = proxy:
> ldap:/etc/postfix/ldap

I see the same:

$ ls -ld /var/tmp/postfix/etc/ldap{,/foo.cf}
drwxr-xr-x  3 root  wheel  96 Feb 18 12:44 ldap
-rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel  24 Feb 18 12:43 ldap/foo.cf

$ postconf -n
postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/var/tmp/postfix/etc/ldap": Is a directory
foo = proxy:ldap:${config_directory}/ldap
proxy_read_maps = ${foo}/foo.cf

$ postconf -d mail_version
mail_version = 3.3-20171028

And likewise with:

$ postconf -n
postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/var/tmp/postfix/etc/": Is a directory
ldap = proxy:ldap:${config_directory}/
proxy_read_maps = ${ldap}foo.cf

Looks like validating LDAP/MySQL/PgSQL table definitions requires more care in
detecting which parameters actually use the RHS as a table, and which are "macros"
for building table definitions.

--
        Viktor.

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Re: Testing Postfix-3.3....0-RC1

Wietse Venema
Viktor Dukhovni:

>
>
> > On Feb 18, 2018, at 8:26 AM, John Fawcett <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Not sure if it helps, but with this configuration in /etc/postfix/main.cf
> >
> > ldap = proxy:
> > ldap:/etc/postfix/ldap
>
> I see the same:
>
> $ ls -ld /var/tmp/postfix/etc/ldap{,/foo.cf}
> drwxr-xr-x  3 root  wheel  96 Feb 18 12:44 ldap
> -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel  24 Feb 18 12:43 ldap/foo.cf
>
> $ postconf -n
> postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/var/tmp/postfix/etc/ldap": Is a directory
> foo = proxy:ldap:${config_directory}/ldap
> proxy_read_maps = ${foo}/foo.cf

Finally. This means that the checker should skip user-defined
parameters, and only inspect parameters defined by Postfix itself;

- Postfix built-in parameters,

- Postfix-generated parameters with names that depend on a master.cf
  service name,

- Postfix-generated parameters with names that depend in a database
  name prefix.

That will probably not happen today as I have to review conference
papers first.

        Wietse
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Re: Testing Postfix-3.3....0-RC1

Wietse Venema
Wietse Venema:

> Viktor Dukhovni:
> >
> >
> > > On Feb 18, 2018, at 8:26 AM, John Fawcett <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Not sure if it helps, but with this configuration in /etc/postfix/main.cf
> > >
> > > ldap = proxy:
> > > ldap:/etc/postfix/ldap
> >
> > I see the same:
> >
> > $ ls -ld /var/tmp/postfix/etc/ldap{,/foo.cf}
> > drwxr-xr-x  3 root  wheel  96 Feb 18 12:44 ldap
> > -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel  24 Feb 18 12:43 ldap/foo.cf
> >
> > $ postconf -n
> > postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/var/tmp/postfix/etc/ldap": Is a directory
> > foo = proxy:ldap:${config_directory}/ldap
> > proxy_read_maps = ${foo}/foo.cf

Fixed by adding a guard that makes postconf look for database names
only in built-in and service-defined parameters (parameters whose
name depends on the name of a master.cf entry). I'll roll out a
Postfix 3.3.0 release candidate on Monday.

        Wietse
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Re: Testing Postfix-3.3....0-RC1

Wietse Venema
Wietse Venema:
> > > $ postconf -n
> > > postconf: warning: read "ldap" configuration "/var/tmp/postfix/etc/ldap": Is a directory
> > > foo = proxy:ldap:${config_directory}/ldap
> > > proxy_read_maps = ${foo}/foo.cf
>
> Fixed by adding a guard that makes postconf look for database names
> only in built-in and service-defined parameters (parameters whose
> name depends on the name of a master.cf entry). I'll roll out a
> Postfix 3.3.0 release candidate on Monday.

Done. This release candidate also adds 22 missing parameter names
to the proxy_read_maps setting (plus the script that generated those
entries).

        Wietse
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Re: Testing Postfix-3.3....0-RC1

Viktor Dukhovni


> On Feb 19, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Wietse Venema <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Done. This release candidate also adds 22 missing parameter names
> to the proxy_read_maps setting (plus the script that generated those
> entries).

With so many values in the default setting of proxy_read_maps, and
given that many users need to add additional tables to the list,
perhaps this is a good time to introduce a "default_proxy_read_maps"
parameter:

  default_proxy_read_maps = ... release-dependent-compile-time-list
  proxy_read_maps = ${default_proxy_read_maps}

That way, a user can just set:

  proxy_read_maps = ${default_proxy_read_maps} ... user-specified ...

Do you agree?

--
--
        Viktor.

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Re: Testing Postfix-3.3....0-RC1

Wietse Venema
Viktor Dukhovni:

>
>
> > On Feb 19, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Wietse Venema <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Done. This release candidate also adds 22 missing parameter names
> > to the proxy_read_maps setting (plus the script that generated those
> > entries).
>
> With so many values in the default setting of proxy_read_maps, and
> given that many users need to add additional tables to the list,
> perhaps this is a good time to introduce a "default_proxy_read_maps"
> parameter:
>
>   default_proxy_read_maps = ... release-dependent-compile-time-list
>   proxy_read_maps = ${default_proxy_read_maps}
>
> That way, a user can just set:
>
>   proxy_read_maps = ${default_proxy_read_maps} ... user-specified ...
>

Couple things.

Assuming that we have no new features in a stable release candidate.

If we do this for proxy_read_maps, then why not for other parameters,
too? How would we justify why some parameter has this and some other
parameter does not? I'd like to avoid new WTF user experiences.

Should all Postfix settings have an automatic default pseudo-parameter,
so that we can avoid WTFs? If so, what would the magic prefix be? We
already have 23 real "default_..." parameters, so that may not be
a good choice.

Should we introduce support for "name = $name ..." or "name += ..."?
(Probaly not, because it complicates editing main/master.cf with the
postconf command).

        Wietse
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Re: Testing Postfix-3.3....0-RC1

Viktor Dukhovni


> On Feb 19, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Wietse Venema <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Couple things.
>
> Assuming that we have no new features in a stable release candidate.
>
> If we do this for proxy_read_maps, then why not for other parameters,
> too? How would we justify why some parameter has this and some other
> parameter does not? I'd like to avoid new WTF user experiences.

Yes, this could be useful in more cases, though "proxy_read_maps"
is singularly compelling.

> Should all Postfix settings have an automatic default pseudo-parameter,
> so that we can avoid WTFs?

This could make sense.

> If so, what would the magic prefix be?

It would perhaps make sense to go with "builtin_" rather than "default_",
given all the "default_" prefixes for transport-neutral values, which are
not the same sort of beast.

> We already have 23 real "default_..." parameters, so that may not be
> a good choice.

Agreed.

> Should we introduce support for "name = $name ..." or "name += ..."?
> (Probaly not, because it complicates editing main/master.cf with the
> postconf command).

I'd go with "name += " if it were feasible, but having the defaults
explicitly accessible does look easier to work with, given machine-
editing...

--
        Viktor.

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Re: Testing Postfix-3.3....0-RC1

Wietse Venema
Viktor Dukhovni:

> > On Feb 19, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Wietse Venema <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Couple things.
> >
> > Assuming that we have no new features in a stable release candidate.
> >
> > If we do this for proxy_read_maps, then why not for other parameters,
> > too? How would we justify why some parameter has this and some other
> > parameter does not? I'd like to avoid new WTF user experiences.
>
> Yes, this could be useful in more cases, though "proxy_read_maps"
> is singularly compelling.
>
> > Should all Postfix settings have an automatic default pseudo-parameter,
> > so that we can avoid WTFs?
>
> This could make sense.

I prefer this (the systematic approach) over special cases any time.

> > If so, what would the magic prefix be?
>
> It would perhaps make sense to go with "builtin_" rather than "default_",
> given all the "default_" prefixes for transport-neutral values, which are
> not the same sort of beast.

"builtin_" sounds good to me.

> > Should we introduce support for "name = $name ..." or "name += ..."?
> > (Probaly not, because it complicates editing main/master.cf with the
> > postconf command).
>
> I'd go with "name += " if it were feasible, but having the defaults
> explicitly accessible does look easier to work with, given machine-
> editing...

Good. No "+=" means no worries about people expecting "-=" support.
That would be a worse headache.

        Wietse