Ubuntu, dynamicmaps?

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Ubuntu, dynamicmaps?

KLaM Postmaster
I am thinking of switching to Ubuntu 8.10 LTS server, however when I
look at the Postfix configuration it seems somewhat odd.
I don't want to start a flame war, but I would like to hear what people
think about things like "dynamicmaps" and other oddities of the Ubuntu
Postfix configuration.

TIA
JLA


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Re: Ubuntu, dynamicmaps?

Victor Duchovni
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 04:40:26PM -0500, KLaM Postmaster wrote:

> I am thinking of switching to Ubuntu 8.10 LTS server, however when I
> look at the Postfix configuration it seems somewhat odd.
> I don't want to start a flame war, but I would like to hear what people
> think about things like "dynamicmaps" and other oddities of the Ubuntu
> Postfix configuration.

This has been a Debian feature for a long time, a perfectly fine idea
to separate table drivers from Postfix, so that a single base Postfix
package can be shipped, and table support is provided shared libraries
available for people who need said tables.

Ubuntu is a Debian derivative, and it is not surprising to see this
reflected in how they package Postfix.

On the whole, I've not heard of LaMont Jones adding anything particularly
to Postfix. The reasons some of the these changes are not in the official
distribution is that is difficult to support these for all platforms...

--
        Viktor.

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Re: Ubuntu, dynamicmaps?

@lbutlr
In reply to this post by KLaM Postmaster
On 11-Mar-2009, at 15:40, KLaM Postmaster wrote:
> I am thinking of switching to Ubuntu 8.10 LTS server, however when I
> look at the Postfix configuration it seems somewhat odd.

Yes, everything in Debian is 'somewhat odd'. It's what makes Deb Deb.

> I don't want to start a flame war, but I would like to hear what  
> people
> think about things like "dynamicmaps" and other oddities of the Ubuntu
> Postfix configuration.

I looked at Debian a long time ago and decided that postfix and SSL  
and all the services I wanted to run were complex enough that I didn't  
want to add another layer of complication to that.

I don't think anything Debian does is bad per se, but it is different.  
In my case I decided that different was bad.  With a base of FreeBSD  
I've had a lot less trouble getting help than I think I would have  
otherwise.

I also really like portinstall and portupgrade more than rpm or apt-get.

--
Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see

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Re: Ubuntu, dynamicmaps?

Scott Kitterman-4
In reply to this post by KLaM Postmaster
On Wed, 11 Mar 2009 16:40:26 -0500 KLaM Postmaster <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>I am thinking of switching to Ubuntu 8.10 LTS server, however when I
>look at the Postfix configuration it seems somewhat odd.
>I don't want to start a flame war, but I would like to hear what people
>think about things like "dynamicmaps" and other oddities of the Ubuntu
>Postfix configuration.
>
The design decision in the Debian/Ubuntu Postfix packages the most often
causes commentary here is to enable chroot by default.  Personally, I like
it, but it does add some complexity and add to the number of people needing
help.

How to accomplish most things you need to do with the chroot is reasonably
well covered in the Ubuntu documentation.  There are also distro specific
support resources that can help.

We are shipping (and I don't recall which release it arrived in, it may
just be in the development release) a script to automate removing the
chroot for people that don't want it.

Scott K
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Re: Ubuntu, dynamicmaps?

Wietse Venema
In reply to this post by Victor Duchovni
Victor Duchovni:

> On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 04:40:26PM -0500, KLaM Postmaster wrote:
>
> > I am thinking of switching to Ubuntu 8.10 LTS server, however when I
> > look at the Postfix configuration it seems somewhat odd.
> > I don't want to start a flame war, but I would like to hear what people
> > think about things like "dynamicmaps" and other oddities of the Ubuntu
> > Postfix configuration.
>
> This has been a Debian feature for a long time, a perfectly fine idea
> to separate table drivers from Postfix, so that a single base Postfix
> package can be shipped, and table support is provided shared libraries
> available for people who need said tables.
>
> Ubuntu is a Debian derivative, and it is not surprising to see this
> reflected in how they package Postfix.
>
> On the whole, I've not heard of LaMont Jones adding anything particularly
> to Postfix. The reasons some of the these changes are not in the official
> distribution is that is difficult to support these for all platforms...

I have several generations of LaMont's patches.

I have no problem with dynamically-linked maps (though it further
complicates chrooted operation). The problem is that it requires
that Postfix's own libraries are also dynamically linked (libutil,
libglobal, and likely more).

I have no time to convert and test all supported platforms for
dynamically linked Postfix libraries, I have no time to maintain
build procedures for static and for dynamic linking as it doubles
the number of tests that need to be done, I do not want to drop
supported platforms, and I do not want to make Postfix dependent
on libtool and autobloat.

        Wietse
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Re: Ubuntu, dynamicmaps?

KLaM Postmaster
In reply to this post by KLaM Postmaster
KLaM Postmaster wrote:
> I am thinking of switching to Ubuntu 8.10 LTS server, however when I
> look at the Postfix configuration it seems somewhat odd.
> I don't want to start a flame war, but I would like to hear what people
> think about things like "dynamicmaps" and other oddities of the Ubuntu
> Postfix configuration.
>
> TIA
> JLA
From the replies that I have received so far, I get the impression that
while no one has anything bad to say about the Ubuntu implementation of
Postfix, nobody is very enthusiastic.
I think I will stick with my current Fedora 10 setup for the moment,
while I look around for a less quirky distribution.
Thanks for the input

JLA
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Re: Ubuntu, dynamicmaps?

Victor Duchovni
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 12:18:02AM -0500, KLaM Postmaster wrote:

> From the replies that I have received so far, I get the impression that
> while no one has anything bad to say about the Ubuntu implementation of
> Postfix, nobody is very enthusiastic.

No, it is a fine Postfix port. There is no reason to avoid it. The dynamic
tables make it easy to add additional table types without re-installing
Postfix or building a Postfix that supports all possible table types. This
Postfix is at least as good as that on other Linux systems.

> I think I will stick with my current Fedora 10 setup for the moment,
> while I look around for a less quirky distribution.

Ubuntu may or may be quirky, but it is not Postfix that makes it so.
The (really Debian) changes you see in Ubuntu cleanly integrate Postfix
into the rest of the system, making SASL, loadable tables, ... fit more
organically into the larger system. And unlike the MacOSX laptop mode,
the changes are robust and reasonably well thought out.

Good system release engineering is often under-appreciated, lets not
give it a bad name here.

If Unix systems had a much more API for building and using shared
libraries, some of the Ubuntu code would be a nice addition to Postfix.

--
        Viktor.

Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored.
Please do not ignore the "Reply-To" header.

To unsubscribe from the postfix-users list, visit
http://www.postfix.org/lists.html or click the link below:
<mailto:[hidden email]?body=unsubscribe%20postfix-users>

If my response solves your problem, the best way to thank me is to not
send an "it worked, thanks" follow-up. If you must respond, please put
"It worked, thanks" in the "Subject" so I can delete these quickly.
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Re: Ubuntu, dynamicmaps?

Patrick Ben Koetter
In reply to this post by KLaM Postmaster
* KLaM Postmaster <[hidden email]>:
> I am thinking of switching to Ubuntu 8.10 LTS server, however when I
> look at the Postfix configuration it seems somewhat odd.
> I don't want to start a flame war, but I would like to hear what people
> think about things like "dynamicmaps" and other oddities of the Ubuntu
> Postfix configuration.

Postfix integration is okay as it is. Several people have pointed out why and
I agree with all statements. What hasn't been mentioned yet is the tools you
have access to, if you run Postfix on an Debian/Ubuntu system.

I moved away from RH-like systems two years ago because it's a PITA to get all
the programs you want when you build a mail server. You can get dkim-milter,
amavisd, SpamAssassin etc. pp. through Dag Wieers repository, but then you
break this other dependency and this doesn't work anymore or you spent weeks
waiting for a bug fix.

I haven't seen this on Ubuntu - minor deviations not taken into account.

Looking at the mail system as a whole makes Debian/Ubuntu interesting to me.

dynamicmaps work and don't get into my way. That's perfect for me. On SASL I
don't agree where LaMont puts the configuration file, but then I don't want to
be dogmatic about this either.

The real bad thing is you set it up and it just works. You don't get any
reason to play with once you've set it up. Which is bad, because it's fun. ;)

p@rick

--
All technical answers asked privately will be automatically answered on
the list and archived for public access unless privacy is explicitely
required and justified.

saslfinger (debugging SMTP AUTH):
<http://postfix.state-of-mind.de/patrick.koetter/saslfinger/>
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Re: Ubuntu, dynamicmaps?

Ralf Hildebrandt
In reply to this post by KLaM Postmaster
* KLaM Postmaster <[hidden email]>:

> From the replies that I have received so far, I get the impression that
> while no one has anything bad to say about the Ubuntu implementation of
> Postfix, nobody is very enthusiastic.

Well, it works OK and doesn't generate any problems. For me.

--
Ralf Hildebrandt ([hidden email])          [hidden email]
Postfix - Einrichtung, Betrieb und Wartung       Tel. +49 (0)30-450 570-155
http://www.arschkrebs.de
Microsoft DNS service terminates abnormally when it receives a
response to a dns query that was never made. Fix information: run your
DNS service on a different platform. -- bugtraq
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Re: Ubuntu, dynamicmaps?

Ralf Hildebrandt
In reply to this post by Victor Duchovni
* Victor Duchovni <[hidden email]>:

> No, it is a fine Postfix port. There is no reason to avoid it.

Indeed!

> The dynamic tables make it easy to add additional table types without
> re-installing Postfix or building a Postfix that supports all possible
> table types. This Postfix is at least as good as that on other Linux
> systems.

Actually, it's better. On some distros I found Postfix packages that
didn't have LDAP (or was it mysql?) support...

--
Ralf Hildebrandt ([hidden email])          [hidden email]
Postfix - Einrichtung, Betrieb und Wartung       Tel. +49 (0)30-450 570-155
http://www.arschkrebs.de
Remember - if all you have is an axe, every problem looks like hours
of fun.
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Re: Ubuntu, dynamicmaps?

Barney Desmond
2009/3/12 Ralf Hildebrandt <[hidden email]>:
>> The dynamic tables make it easy to add additional table types without
>> re-installing Postfix or building a Postfix that supports all possible
>> table types. This Postfix is at least as good as that on other Linux
>> systems.
>
> Actually, it's better. On some distros I found Postfix packages that
> didn't have LDAP (or was it mysql?) support...

Bingo, RHEL5 comes with Postfix 2.3.3 and doesn't have support for
mysql/pgsql tables - which are kinda popular, y'know. You can go and
get the centosplus package that includes those, but then of course any
updates will clobber it, and...

That's probably why a lot of the "how to setup a complete mail system"
guides I've seen are written for Debian-type systems. :)
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Re: Ubuntu, dynamicmaps?

Ralf Hildebrandt
* Barney Desmond <[hidden email]>:

> Bingo, RHEL5 comes with Postfix 2.3.3 and doesn't have support for
> mysql/pgsql tables - which are kinda popular, y'know.

E in RHEL5 stands for "except *sql", not "enterprise"

--
Ralf Hildebrandt ([hidden email])          [hidden email]
Postfix - Einrichtung, Betrieb und Wartung       Tel. +49 (0)30-450 570-155
http://www.arschkrebs.de
Three things are certain:
Death, taxes and lost data.
Guess which has occurred.
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Re: Ubuntu, dynamicmaps?

KLaM Postmaster
In reply to this post by KLaM Postmaster
KLaM Postmaster wrote:
> I am thinking of switching to Ubuntu 8.10 LTS server, however when I
> look at the Postfix configuration it seems somewhat odd.
> I don't want to start a flame war, but I would like to hear what people
> think about things like "dynamicmaps" and other oddities of the Ubuntu
> Postfix configuration.
>
> TIA
> JLA
Hmmmm. food for thought! Damn, now I have to engage brain!
Thanks for the input.
JLA